Trained Judges?

[THC]

I have cooked several IBCA competitions and I have concerns about judging.  Barbecue should be judged on equal footing based upon aroma, texture, flavor, appearance, and overall rating.  However, after talking to several judges who volunteered for IBCA events, they were not instructed to judge that way.  I challenge anyone on the board for IBCA to propose that judges be certified from the IBCA membership and that to qualify for IBCA points that they must judge two competitions annually.  Additionally that each meat be rated on a scale of 1-10 on each category of aroma, flavor, texture, appearance.  Overall barbecue is scored from the average of the categories.  The overall score should be averaged from each judges score sheet who judged that tray.  This will invariably give each tray a unique score and the top 1/3 would go to a final table.  The top 1/3 should be certified judges only.  They would judge each tray the same way as previously judged giving each tray a final table average.  The highest average would be 1st place. 

I have previously proposed this system to a head judge and the head judges response was that it would take too long and that it would take a CPA to figure out all of the math. 

[MaxQue]

hmmmm

I just looked at the official judging sheet from IBCA and I am very sorry that the people you talked to are unable to read.  The criteria is written out in black and white on the sheet they were given to judge from. 

Take a look for yourself

I once wondered about the judging process in IBCA when I became a certified judge in KCBS.  After a couple of years cooking in IBCA....and judging only one KCBS contest........... I'll take the IBCA system anyday.

My $0.02

[gmholler]

THC, why don't you come and help out in the judges area or volunteer to be a judge at a contest sometime? It might set your mind at ease and give you a different perspective once you see the actual happenings and don't have to rely on hearsay.

Lynn H.

[SweetHeat]

I think offering judging classes would be good for several reasons.  First, revenue, KCBS charges $40 for a basic judging class.  This could generate a good deal of revenue for IBCA and that equals growth.  Besides, I think people should be paying if they are going to be eating some of the best BBQ from some of the best competitiors in Texas.  From a competitor standpoint, a great deal of effort and expense goes into these contests, I want the people who are judging my entries to be serious about real BBQ.  Second, education, there should be a set of standards of what good BBQ should be and people need to be instructed how to judge without introducing their personal bias into the equation.  I realize personal bias cannot be completely eliminated from the process, but if judges are made aware of these tendencies, it can be held to a minimum.

I mostly compete, in both IBCA and KCBS contests, but I have judged several IBCA competitions.  As far as judging goes, I would rather have six people who have taken a judging class, judge my BBQ, rather than 20-30 who just showed up to see what it was all about. 

Bottom line, KCBS has achieved a great deal of success. It is the most recognized BBQ organization around, that cannot be debated.  I see nothing wrong with examining their practices and possibly taking some plays out of their book.  All this being said, I am proud to be a member of IBCA.

[Lynn]

I think offering judging classes would be good for several reasons.  First, revenue, KCBS charges $40 for a basic judging class.  This could generate a good deal of revenue for IBCA and that equals growth.  Matt, IBCA is a non-profit organization - and there are so many events in TX that trying to get certified judges would be very difficult.   --- KCBS has a large membership that is made up of mostly certified judges and is a revenue to their organization ------ IBCA membership is made up of 85%-90% cookers.
  Besides, I think people should be paying if they are going to be eating some of the best BBQ from some of the best competitiors in Texas.  From a competitor standpoint, a great deal of effort and expense goes into these contests, I want the people who are judging my entries to be serious about real BBQ.  Second, education, there should be a set of standards of what good BBQ should be and people need to be instructed how to judge without introducing their personal bias into the equation.  I realize personal bias cannot be completely eliminated from the process, but if judges are made aware of these tendencies, it can be held to a minimum.   Do you think that someone could tell you what you liked in BBQ - that is what the classes do they tell you what you are suppose to see in BBQ - as you know judging can be very subjective -- what you like and what I like are 2 different things - taking a class isn't going to change that.

I mostly compete, in both IBCA and KCBS contests, but I have judged several IBCA competitions.  As far as judging goes, I would rather have six people who have taken a judging class, judge my BBQ, rather than 20-30 who just showed up to see what it was all about.  Matt having only 6 people judge your product doesn't always give you the opportunity to advance to the top -- at least with the IBCA judging system you may be given a second chance to advance to the top and  even with the 6 judges the scores are all over the board

Bottom line, KCBS has achieved a great deal of success. It is the most recognized BBQ organization around, that cannot be debated.  I see nothing wrong with examining their practices and possibly taking some plays out of their book.  All this being said, I am proud to be a member of IBCA.
[/quote

IBCA might not be as recognized  the KCBS but we are growing at a rapid pace (as is KCBS) and I'm very proud of our organization and will continue to support BBQ.  As far as taking some plays out of their book - KCBS has made some changes since IBCA has begin to grow as in paying out to more places -- which IBCA has always recognized that the cooks should have the opportunity of getting some of their expenses back and not make the top payouts so heavy

[SweetHeat]

Very true.  I love that IBCA comps always pay out to more places than does KCBS.  I really think offering judging classes is the perfect oportunity to get non-cookers involved in IBCA.  Plus, I think it may be suprising how many cook teams would pay to take a class to learn about the IBCA standards and how to properly judge BBQ.  For example, instruct judges to use the same criteria when rating a sweet rib as a dry rub rib even if a sweet rib is not their preference. I know that is how KCBS teaches their judging class. 

I used the term revenue in my previous post, which is wrong in this context, my apologies.  KCBS has all these things to generate money, which they use to add to prizes for competitions.  This draws in more cookers, who are willing to pay a higher entry fee for a shot at a bigger prize, and the cycle continues.  Not to mention the corporate sponsorships like Sams Club, Big Red, etc.  The prestige of KCBS has everything to do with money, but I think we have some of the best cooks in the country right here in TX.  I would love to someday see IBCA surpass KCBS in the BBQ world. 

[cj8tk]

My .02
I understand what some of you guys are saying but HOW CAN YOU TELL SOMEONE WHAT KIND OF FOOD THEY LIKE!   IBCA rules work, I have taken part in KCBS and IBCA and both work just fine. The thing that I do not like about KCBS is ONE judge can kill your score.  ANYWAYS JUST GET OUT AND COOK!!

[CEBBQ]

KCBS judging class does NOT tell people what they should like or what BBQ should taste like. They provide general guidelines of how the food should be cooked not how it should taste. I hear the "IBCA rules WORK" all the time and mainly from those that win on a regular basis. Just because something works doesn't mean it can't be improved and it seems that most IBCA cooks are quite resistant to change for fear they won't win as much. In my opinion, IBCA could make improvements to judging and provide a few more rules on allowed cooking methods whereas KCBS almost has too many controls. I don't believe KCBS is better than IBCA or IBCA better than KCBS. I believe both could benefit from parts of the other but there just seems to be too much us versus them for a middle ground to be reached.

Oh and "one judge can kill your score". At least they drop the lowest score, so it seems that one bad score really hurts more in IBCA than KCBS. This is a rule that would be great in IBCA because there always seems to be one in every crowd.

[cj8tk]

Tell me this then. I like my ribs with a little pull on the bone. My wife likes hers to be completly falling off the bone. How are we not told what we like under KCBS judging guidelines? You are correct on the dropping of the lowest score and I am sorry for that I should have said two judges. Bottom line You can not please everyone. Judges off the street know what kind of bbq they like. I do love the way you know where you stand in KCBS top to bottom.

[SweetHeat]

That is exactly why KCBS has guidlines for judges.  It doesn't matter if you prefer fall off the bone ribs or not.  Judging should be done as objectively as possible against a set of guidlines, regardless of personal preference.  This can not be controlled entirely, but KCBS makes a good effort with their judging classes.

[THC]

hmmm.  So... I am not the only one who thinks that there are some things that could use some tweeking. 

Lynn, I have judged at IBCA cook offs before and my wife has too.

Maybe it is just me, but some of the responses (esp. the ones where the responder went point by point on the post and replies) seemed a little intolerant and arrogant in tone. 

It really makes me feel like my opinion would not matter with this organization.  Or if I had an opinion that I should keep it to myself. 

Psst!  Sorry if I stepped on any toes. 

[cj8tk]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When I took my judging class a couple of years ago, I really liked how we were taught but was bothered or confused by one thing.

When they brought the brisket around and we judged the boxes appearance then took our samples then scored the samples, too me it was the best brisket I had eaten in a very long time so I scored it a 9. My wife who sat next to me for the class score it an 8 while people at the other end of the table score it a 6 on taste. When discussing why we scored the way we did the instructor said that the brisket was average and probably should have been scored a 7. He had asked entire room what scores they gave and only one other person besides me gave it a 9 on taste, so I had to explain why I scored it the way I did. He never told me I was wrong but that comment that the brisket was only average so should probably be a 7 has always stuck with me."

This was posted on BBQ Brethern today. So I thought they did not tell you what to like!!!! Just goes to show you someone is always going to Bit*h about every system. We all have opinions and none of them are prob. right.
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118625

[THC]

I realize that there are no answers...  Opinions are like noses... Everybody has one.  However, USDA does not seem to have a problem looking at the attributes of meat and grading it appropriately.  Grading meat on the hoof seems to be easy for beef buyers.  Highschool students are taught to do it.  So creating a standard to which a group of judges adheres to seems reasonable to me. 
Maybe I am just "bit*hing," or maybe just frustrated.  I have gotten called at 12 of my last 15 cook offs.  I am passionate about my art, and as with every form of art, not everyone is pleased by it all of the time.  But after several discussions with IBCA members and non-members about the manner of judging at IBCA events, I felt that it was worth putting my ideas out for discussion.  My intent was not to step on toes.  So I apologize to anyone who has been offended by this discussion.
One of the last three IBCA cook offs which I cooked, the head judge announced that the scores tabulated to ties for first, third, and fifth places after the final table.  At the next IBCA cook off scores were done differently, according to one of the judges.  I am not sure what went on behind the scenes at that cook off. 
It just gives the appearance of a lack of consistency.... in my unofficial biased opinion.  (I say biased because I believe I should win every cook off.) 
With that said, I would like to end this thread, and I will work a different avenue to affect change.